Then there’s Congress, where critics also fear the passage of legislative efforts they say would virtually legitimize many pyramid schemes. One such bill, introduced last summer by a bipartisan caucus organized by the industry lobbying group, the Direct Selling Association, was opposed by Ramirez because it contradicts the terms of the Herbalife settlement. Days after she announced her resignation, Ramirez wrote a letter to the DSA chastising it for its opposition to the FTC view, which the DSA had laid out in a press release shortly before Trump’s inauguration. The question is whether there is retail demand for the products of MLMs or whether the purchases are just a camouflage for recruitment. The DSA, and the bill, argues that purchases by participants in the scheme, called “internal consumption,” can represent true demand, which means they would count when determining commissions paid to salespeople. Ramirez and the FTC disagree. Even if MLM participants do want to buy products for their own use, they shouldn’t be compensated for doing so, Ramirez said. To ensure compensation is driven by retail sales, she noted, companies should keep track of all customer sales outside the network (as Herbalife is being forced to do).
Global, a wide range of products from which you can choose your favourite to promote, and based on the plant aloe vera which is being talked about a lot recently as one of the 147 medicinal plants. I have been a Forever Business Owner since November last year, so I remember well my first steps and would be happy to answer any questions you may have.
If you decide to buy into the program and promote the products, you must be sure your marketing materials are truthful and that there's solid evidence to back up the claims you make about the products. Before you repeat any claims the company has made, verify that there’s competent and reliable research to back them up. That’s the standard the FTC uses when evaluating advertising claims.

Well done Melaleuca, they hit over a billion dollars in yearly sales…there’s a reason they are a part of the select few considered to be at the top. Adding to this is their longevity, because they’ve been in the MLM industry for over 20 years, and now they’ve reached the status of the “largest online wellness shopping club” (which can sound fancier than it is, because are they aren’t selling anything more than a fantasy diet pill).

Consultants for It Works! frequently employ before and after photos highlighting unbelievable results. They claim that customers can minimize the appearance of cellulite, tighten loose skin, and achieve lasting weight loss results in as little as 45 minutes. The one thing they don’t mention? The fact that dietary supplements aren’t regulated by the FDA. So even if they don’t work, customers wouldn’t know about it.
I thought That your article was very good. My wife recently joined this company called World Ventures and me being me I figured it would be like some of the other companies that she has joined. You know a bunch of women companies scentsy, 31, etc but the reason I took notice is when she made 500. I know it’s not much but i know if she can make that faster than she has with some of the others she has joined without my help then maybe this thing is the real deal. What do you know about it? I have met some of the people and they seem genuine unlike some of these others like Amway and I don’t feel like it’s all about freaking selling like most of the others. Just shoot it to me straight.
If 18,000,000 Americans consider MLM their careers, yet only 0.3% actually succeed beyond average corporate America wages, do people realize that means there are barely more than 50,000 Americans “living the MLM dream” and almost 17,950,000 who just help the 50,000? Sad. I was part of team Tupperware decades ago because I wanted to buy Tupperware for my home for less. It took me about 14 months as a stay at home mother (never recruited, never pressured, my distributor didn’t like my attitude) to accomplish that task and then walked away. I live in rural America where so many fall to MLMs attempting to climb out of paycheck to paycheck living (very few good jobs) like the saved into a baptismal pool. “Disciples” is the perfect word. MLMs are just not thriving here. How many Americans can one recruit/sell to for building a business in a rural county with less than 20,000 other Americans of which 75% live below the poverty line? I see MLM victims everywhere.
Not all MLM companies are created equal. Many see an initial burst of success followed by a gradual tapering off of profits, causing them to collapse and go out of business. MLM companies that succeed have sound business models, both for those who run the company and for those who sell product and recruit new sales agents. There are many sites devoted to MLM rankings, creating lists of companies likely to provide a return on investment to sales agents interested in the industry.
Inspirational teacher, speaker, coach, and author of the international best-selling book Your Inner GPS, Zen Cryar DeBrücke helps people transform the stress in their lives into powerful guidance that leads them to living in greater states of happiness. Her groundbreaking work in using ones Internal Guidance System creates guaranteed and sustained positive changes for people in their business and personal lives. She is a master at helping people replace exhaustion, anxiety, fear, and dread with ease, joy, and flow.
But perhaps the most appealing factor in venturing into network marketing is that in return for a low risk investment, distributors get a chance to take home a most-coveted residual flow of income. At the same time, they take pleasure in time freedom and an improved quality of life. They can work whenever they prefer and decide on how much effort they are going to put into the business to make the income that they desire.
His unquenchable desire to live life to the fullest pushed him to develop a strategy for success in life, not unlike the formula he created for his venture studio. Following his life plan for happiness, balance and love while still achieving greatness in his career, Dyrdek now enjoys a fulfilling life with his family in Beverly Hills and continues to build his dream as he had not only envisioned, but designed it.
Much has been made of the personal, or internal, consumption issue in recent years. In fact, the amount of internal consumption in any multi-level compensation business does not determine whether or not the FTC will consider the plan a pyramid scheme. The critical question for the FTC is whether the revenues that primarily support the commissions paid to all participants are generated from purchases of goods and services that are not simply incidental to the purchase of the right to participate in a money-making venture.[46]
Not all MLM companies are pyramid schemes — but many are universally reviled by both the people who work for them and the potential customers who are sick of constantly being pestered by friends to buy the products. Ahead, discover the most hated multi-level marking companies today — including the one with a billion dollar lawsuit pending (number 7).
If you insist on trying one of these MLM offers, the least you can do is look for proper business registration with BBB, toll free number, and proper address (no Post Office box). Also, you will need lots of family and friends to make it work. As a final step, check the MLM materials for one or more of these "red flags" that are associated with the worst of the offerings:
Almost any product or service could be sold through multilevel marketing, including health, beauty, and fitness products that aren't available on store shelves. Apply a healthy dose of skepticism before buying or selling products advertised as having "miracle" ingredients or guaranteed results. Many of these "quick cures" are unproven, fraudulently marketed, and useless. In fact, they could be dangerous. You may want to check with a health professional before using them — or selling them.
Advocare has the best science, the best products and amazing credibility with top athletes in the world of sports. In addition to generous discounts on products and potential to make an unlimited stream of residual income. If you genuinely want to help people this is the best company to be a part of! Id love to talk to you more about the endless benefits Advocare offers!
In an MLM, sometimes more euphemistically called a “direct-selling” company because the products aren’t sold in stores, salespeople frequently woo participants by dangling riches before their eyes as they are led to make big, upfront purchases of pricey products, then asked to recruit others under them to sell the product and recruit still more participants in the hopes of earning big commissions in what becomes a pyramidal structure. As Ramirez noted, most participants don’t make significant income. Following the Herbalife settlement terms would force these companies to ditch any deceptive income pitches and also keep track of sales to customers outside the member networks to prove that most of their products are not just being bought by the company’s own salespeople.

These nonsalaried workers may be stay-at-home parents, college students or part-time workers hoping to make money by selling products such as vitamins and makeup to their friends and family. But experts note that just selling products is typically not enough to make a profit, and workers are encouraged to recruit a "downline," a team of underlings from whose sales they also earn a commission, creating a pyramid-shaped compensation structure.
“The two years I was supposedly building my Amway business, I lost nearly $10,000 on tapes, seminars, books, gas, and travel expenses for out-of-town seminars. My earnings? Less than $500 total. Since I was unemployed — and pretty much unemployable for any nonburger-flipping job — those $10,000 came exclusively from my grandmother, who was also my biggest (and only) Amway customer, buying expensive, ‘concentrated’ Amway products she didn’t need, every month to support me.”
MLMs make it easy to feel like you’re making friends because you’ve got the MLM in common with fellow participants. Every MLM has their own lingo and Instagram hashtags. Members of the same MLM comment positively on each other’s social media posts and provide encouragement during livestream “parties.” They can then go meet these people in person at giant “extravaganzas” — conferences where they dress to the nines, dance to “Despacito,” and hear motivational speakers. For a stay-at-home mom who spends her days discussing which is the best pup on Paw Patrol, that sounds pretty freaking awesome.
I thought That your article was very good. My wife recently joined this company called World Ventures and me being me I figured it would be like some of the other companies that she has joined. You know a bunch of women companies scentsy, 31, etc but the reason I took notice is when she made 500. I know it’s not much but i know if she can make that faster than she has with some of the others she has joined without my help then maybe this thing is the real deal. What do you know about it? I have met some of the people and they seem genuine unlike some of these others like Amway and I don’t feel like it’s all about freaking selling like most of the others. Just shoot it to me straight.
* Go Pro Recruiting Mastery – the world’s #1 generic training event for the Network Marketing Profession. Join us December 4-6, at the MGM Grand Garden Arena in Las Vegas, Nevada. You will hear from top international thought leaders including Magic Johnson, John Maxwell, and dozes of Million-Dollar Earners. It’s an extraordinary event that you and your team can’t afford to miss. To learn more, go to GoProRecruiting.com.
Staci Cahill runs her Washington MLM company in a way many people can appreciate.  She keeps her personal life separate from her business life by avoiding home parties, offering instead workshops that educate prospects on the products she offers.  “I didn’t want to be that person others hid from because they thought I was going to ask them to host a party.  I like to keep my business life and personal life separate.”
First, Elliot, thank you for this article. Your sense of truly wanting to help comes through and it’s refreshing. Like MommyFinance, I too have suffered PTSD from previous runs at MLM but I have been looking for legitimate ways of making extra income and seems I’m being directed toward trying MLM again. Your article gave me hope that there are some good ones out there. What you said about finding the one that fits me and leaving a legacy for family really turned on a light for me and I greatly appreciate that. A wine business is not quite up my alley but I will certainly direct those who might be interested your way.

When you hit over a billy in annual sales, that’s reason enough to be on the shortlist. On top of that, they’ve been in the MLM game for over two decades, and they’re now the “largest online wellness shopping club” (basically just sounds like a fancy way of saying they sell a lot of miracle diet pills…for our rankings of the best women diet pills are here).
A good MLM will have more than a few products to sell. They will have more than market sector covered (not just nutritional supplements, water filters or essential oils). They will also have other major retailers that they market for. The money those major corporations spend on the annual marketing, will be paid out to the MLM and their distributors for their sales & marketing efforts and results. That is where those companies will get
As noted, many MLM companies do generate billions of dollars in annual revenue and hundreds of millions of dollars in annual profit. However, the profits of the MLM company are derived to the detriment of the overwhelming majority of the company's non-salaried workforce (the MLM participants). Only some of the profit is then significantly shared with none but a few individual participants at the top of the MLM participant pyramid. The earnings of those top few participants then allows the creation of an illusion of how one can potentially become financially successful if one becomes a participant in the MLM. This is then emphasized and advertised by the MLM company to recruit more participants to participate in the MLM with a false anticipation of earning margins which are in reality merely theoretical and statistically improbable.[14]
You've probably heard horror stories about people ending up with a garage full of expensive water filters or other items. This happens because only other distributors will purchase the product at that price. Your product or service must fill a real need at a fair price, and there should be a large untapped market for it. In other words, it must provide tremendous value so that the customer is the biggest winner.
Get the company’s refund policy in writing. Make sure it includes information about returning any unused products, including restrictions and penalties. It may seem like you’re minimizing your risk if you can return products for a reimbursement, but policies vary on whether you’ll get a full refund — and how long it may take. Many plans require you to buy training or marketing materials, or pay for seminars if you want to get product discounts or create your own network of distributors. Find out how much time and money other distributors spent on training, marketing materials, and seminars when they joined the plan, and whether the plan requires you to participate in periodic training. What happens if you opt out of the training?
In the earlier 2000’s everyone in the network marketing industry new about ACN.  Accelerate time and land in 2017, the telecommunication strategy company has seen better days and has continued to decline over the last 5 years.  However, with $800+ million in yearly revenue still coming in, it’s not bad at all.  You can still call them a “has been” company and they have ultimately met their demise by a failing to update themselves.
MLM has stretched its sticky fingers out into just about every product market out there, so it’s kinda hard to do something new nowadays. But Jamberry Nails did it. Their adhesive, custom nail designs BLEW UP when they hit the direct sales floor. They built up an army of over 100,000 consultants in the time it takes most people to get a mediocre pay raise at their 9-5.
Although MLM is most commonly associated with direct-selling distributorships and/or party planning companies, some major financial/insurance companies also employ this strategy, including Primerica and World Financial Group (WFG). Although party plan consultants will certainly gain valuable grass-roots marketing experience, the college-educated marketer will seek positions within these larger financial companies, or at the corporate level of an MLM company.

If 18,000,000 Americans consider MLM their careers, yet only 0.3% actually succeed beyond average corporate America wages, do people realize that means there are barely more than 50,000 Americans “living the MLM dream” and almost 17,950,000 who just help the 50,000? Sad. I was part of team Tupperware decades ago because I wanted to buy Tupperware for my home for less. It took me about 14 months as a stay at home mother (never recruited, never pressured, my distributor didn’t like my attitude) to accomplish that task and then walked away. I live in rural America where so many fall to MLMs attempting to climb out of paycheck to paycheck living (very few good jobs) like the saved into a baptismal pool. “Disciples” is the perfect word. MLMs are just not thriving here. How many Americans can one recruit/sell to for building a business in a rural county with less than 20,000 other Americans of which 75% live below the poverty line? I see MLM victims everywhere.
The reality is there’s nothing special about the stuff MLM companies sell. You can find whey protein and meal replacement shakes at your local CVS or online. You can buy essential oils at Whole Foods and Amazon. Your wife can buy quality make-up and skincare products at Ulta, Walgreens, or online. You can get pretty much anything an MLM sells and often for much cheaper, even when your MLM distributor discount is factored in (see the next section). There’s nothing significantly different about MLM products besides the marketing and branding.
In a similar fashion, when you eliminate money from the network marketing industry, a new perspective emerges.  Personally speaking, I love talking with people who are in this industry because they are always reading, posting, and sharing something inspirational.  They have goals, a dream board, and are generally using the products that they are selling to improve the way they look and feel.
This group effect also plays into the vital role that a person’s social network can have on their retirement. Studies show that being around negative, pessimistic or sarcastic people can actually be detrimental to your health.  And many people can get stuck in a rut when it comes to who they hang around and associate with. Which means successful aging includes hanging around upbeat, positive people.
* Go Pro Recruiting Mastery – the world’s #1 generic training event for the Network Marketing Profession. Join us December 4-6, at the MGM Grand Garden Arena in Las Vegas, Nevada. You will hear from top international thought leaders including Magic Johnson, John Maxwell, and dozens of Million-Dollar Earners. It’s an extraordinary event that you and your team can’t afford to miss. To learn more, go to GoProRecruiting.com.
The cons of mlm are that most people getting into mlm don’t understand mlm. They apply the incorrect philosophy and it becomes a recipe for disaster. I see dozens of people monthly that join a mlm, don’t work and don’t yield any results and as a result, leave with a bad taste. But with correct leadership that problem could be averted. That is precisely why I love my company. It has the best leadership (in my opinion) and they properly train their agents.
It was not until August 23, 2005 that the State Council promulgated rules that dealt specifically with direct sale operation- Administration of Direct Sales (entered into effect on 1 December 2005) and the Regulations for the Prohibition of chuanxiao (entered into effect on 1 November 2005). When direct selling is allowed, it will only be permitted under the most stringent requirements, in order to ensure the operations are not pyramid schemes, MLM, or fly-by-night operations.
Then there’s Congress, where critics also fear the passage of legislative efforts they say would virtually legitimize many pyramid schemes. One such bill, introduced last summer by a bipartisan caucus organized by the industry lobbying group, the Direct Selling Association, was opposed by Ramirez because it contradicts the terms of the Herbalife settlement. Days after she announced her resignation, Ramirez wrote a letter to the DSA chastising it for its opposition to the FTC view, which the DSA had laid out in a press release shortly before Trump’s inauguration. The question is whether there is retail demand for the products of MLMs or whether the purchases are just a camouflage for recruitment. The DSA, and the bill, argues that purchases by participants in the scheme, called “internal consumption,” can represent true demand, which means they would count when determining commissions paid to salespeople. Ramirez and the FTC disagree. Even if MLM participants do want to buy products for their own use, they shouldn’t be compensated for doing so, Ramirez said. To ensure compensation is driven by retail sales, she noted, companies should keep track of all customer sales outside the network (as Herbalife is being forced to do).
In April 2006, the FTC proposed a Business Opportunity Rule intended to require all sellers of business opportunities—including MLMs—to provide enough information to enable prospective buyers/participants to make an informed decision about acquiring/joining a business venture with information disclosed about the average likelihood of monetary profitability (and the extent of monetary profitability, if any) of acquiring/joining the business venture. In March 2008, however, the FTC removed "Network Marketing" (i.e. MLM) companies from the proposed Business Opportunity Rule, thus leaving MLM participants without the ability to make an informed choice of entering or not entering MLMs based on the disclosed likelihood of success and profitability:
The MLM industry varies so much and is so vast, it’s kind of hard to break into any niche with a new product (because chances are it’s already been done), however this company managed to do it! With their custom nail designs and adhesive technique, the company made a big bang with their introduction to the direct sales platform.  They got over 100,000 associates in no time, and ended up conquering their market.

Businessman, master networker, and one of the top five speakers in the world, Harvey Mackay is the author of the #1 New York Times bestsellers Swim with the Sharks Without Being Eaten Alive and Beware the Naked Man Who Offers You His Shirt – both of which are among the top 15 inspirational business books of all time according to the New York Times.
You’ll also find the work much easier if you have developed a range of media-related skills and understand how to navigate the MLM world. At Be On Air Media Schools, we have a variety of programs that can prepare you for MLM success. Give any of the Ohio, Colorado, Illinois and Miami Media Schools a look. Once you decide if it is the path you want to take, you can apply online.
If they are, the company is strong, and the product or service is a winner, then you will succeed. You will have to put the effort in to learn the systems and processes that make it work, but there's a big difference between a sponsor and a recruiter. A sponsor coaches, motivates, and trains while a recruiter simply signs people up and, in most cases, abandons them once their commission is collected.
The overwhelming majority of MLM participants (most sources estimated to be over 99.25% of all MLM participants) participate at either an insignificant or nil net profit.[12] Indeed, the largest proportion of participants must operate at a net loss (after expenses are deducted) so that the few individuals in the uppermost level of the MLM pyramid can derive their significant earnings—earnings which are then emphasized by the MLM company to all other participants to encourage their continued participation at a continuing financial loss.[13]
I am considering joining a MLM but can’t decide. Almost everyone I know either does Genesis Pure, Xyngular, or Thrive. I want something that is healthy and simple. Not something you have to do 3-5 items to have great health results. Please help! There are so many choices. I have researched and read reviews, about the companies and they each have pros and cons. Suggestions please Elliot and thanks again for your time and assistance.
Meet Clive Leach & Diana Ross With more than 25 years in the Profession and over 178,000 customers in their organization, Clive Leach and Diana Ross are an entertaining and inspiring husband and wife power couple from the United Kingdom. Although their upbringings and early lives were quite different, Network Marketing brought them together and ...…
Okay, we have a return to network marketing roots (can you remember the days of Tupperware parties…no? Well I’m not sorry to tell you there’s a reason for that).  Products for your kitchen, cooking demos, and an abundance of mommy bloggers.  Well homemakers are still the key demographic for this MLM, because they are looking for flexibility.  It’s not surprising to anyone that this company has done so well, but what is notable is that even Warren Buffet saw this company and decided he wanted a piece of the pie.

The $50-$100 kept coming in (because of the type of business, very few customers drop out once they become customers). I wanted to re-commit to the business, so I started listening to the audio book. I started seeing what I was doing wrong. Eric would occasional weigh in with comments like "m ost distributors do this. Don't do that!" kind of advice that spoke directly to me.

Even if you, or your wife, aren’t bothered by the pyramidal structure of multi-level marketing companies, even if you could make a ton of money by working for one, you still shouldn’t do it for this one reason alone: you shouldn’t ever want to commodify the sacrality of your relationships; you shouldn’t trade the genuine bonds of love for the cold economics of exchange.
Jim’s friend who recruited him into the company starts telling Jim that the way you really start making money with Company A is recruiting other people beneath you to sell shakes. “When you sign someone up,” explains Jim’s friend, “you will start getting a 10% commission on the product your recruit is required to buy from Company A in order to qualify as a distributor. If you can get 3 people to sign up, it means you would be earning 10% commission on all the product those 3 recruits are required to buy, plus whatever they purchase beyond that minimum.”
From the analytics I gathered from social media, Isagenix is really becoming a trend among the network marketing companies that offer a reseller program. The question is, what product does this MLM company has to sell? Isagenix has plenty of nutritional supplements that are too many to mention in this post; products such as healthy food products, anti-aging skin care products and energy supplements have received impressive product reviews on reputable websites like Amazon.
Specifically, they struggle to jump start their health goals, to connect with new people, to learn new things, and yearn to be a part of a community.  What I am telling you is that the average retiree is at least 25 pounds overweight, feels tired for some part of the day, may be moderately depressed about something, has low self-esteem in one or two areas of life, acknowledges they only kind of have a best friend, and overall lead pretty plain lives.
Yes folks, another MLM company in the nutritional niche selling astonishing super-fruit with an overall distinctly higher price tag.  What separates them from the rest? Not sure, but interestingly enough their bottom line is impressive.  The company has grown to over 44 countries around the world, and is constantly expanding!  All this after only about 10 years in business.  On top of their successful reputation, they offer a lot of sales training and decent commission rates for their company reps, which is not seen a lot these days.

What's up ladies and dudes! Great to finally meet you, and I hope you enjoyed this post. My name is Nathaniell and I'm the owner of One More Cup of Coffee. I started my first online business in 2010 promoting computer software and now I help newbies start their own businesses. Sign up for my #1 recommended training course and learn how to start your business for FREE!
Take Rodan+Fields, a skincare line developed by the dermatologists who created Proactive. It’s supposed be top-notch stuff. When they initially launched the product, they went the traditional retail route. Estee Lauder then bought the company for an undisclosed amount and continued to sell it through traditional retail. Sales of Rodan+Fields were surprisingly lackluster, however, so its former owners bought the company back and implemented the MLM model. Sales of the product skyrocketed to over a billion dollars. They’d claim it was thanks to the word-of-mouth marketing MLMs facilitate. I’d venture to guess it had more to do with the fact they have a captive customer base amongst the hundreds of thousands of distributors who are required to make minimum purchase amounts each month and recruit other distributors who will have to make minimum purchase amounts each month too.
Well it seems like forever, but isn’t that how long ago 1993 feels? That’s when this MLM popped its head onto the scene and they haven’t gone anywhere since.  This is how you build a company from the ground up. Step 1: trustworthy name brand and Step 2: strong foundation. With these solid steps businesses can go anywhere, and a half billion in yearly sales won’t hurt either.

If you need something just see if this company has it, because chances are they do.  They are recognized for their greatly discounted product one-stop-shop, as they are wealthy CEOs.  The CEOs have made it to the Forbes list, drive nice cars, live in mansions in Biscayne Bay, penthouses in Manhattan, and are well-known with celebrities…I could go on, but you get the picture, right?  And this is all in credit to their MLM.  They’ve hit snags in their past with the SEC, but at the end of the day they just kept going, and they’re going strong.  Market America still managed to make it onto the DSN Global 100 at the 29th position.

You've probably heard horror stories about people ending up with a garage full of expensive water filters or other items. This happens because only other distributors will purchase the product at that price. Your product or service must fill a real need at a fair price, and there should be a large untapped market for it. In other words, it must provide tremendous value so that the customer is the biggest winner.


Icahn is helping vet Trump’s choices to head the regulatory agencies and one of his companies has already benefited on Wall Street from the selection of Trump’s Environmental Protection Agency pick Scott Pruitt, whom Icahn helped vet. If Icahn assists Trump in naming FTC commissioners, he will be helping to staff the body charged with enforcing the Herbalife settlement.


*  Go Pro Recruiting Mastery– the world’s #1 generic training event for the Network Marketing Profession.  Join us December 4-6, at the MGM Grand Garden Arena in Las Vegas, Nevada.  You will hear from top international thought leaders including Magic Johnson, John Maxwell, and dozens of Million-Dollar Earners. It’s an extraordinary event that you and your team can’t afford to miss.  To learn more, go to GoProRecruiting.com.
Lauded as the #1 leadership expert in the world by Inc. Magazine, John C. Maxwell is a speaker, coach, and New York Times Bestselling Author. He has written more than 80 books - including the 21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership and the 21 Indispensable Qualities of a Leader - that have sold more than 26 million copies and have been translated int ...…
Think back to when you were recruited and consider if it was primarily as a customer, with just a mention of "income opportunity," or if the primary pitch was for the business opportunity. The ethical way to build a downline is to sign up people as customers first, and then if they like the product, they'll be drawn to becoming a rep. A hard sell on signing up as a rep right at the outset should send up a red flag for you.
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